{"contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

Get Out of Iraq, More Or Less

Evidently, the president plans to withdraw American combat forces from Iraq by the end of next year, and that calculates to be only three months later than his campaign promise to be out within 16 months of inauguration. But the specifics of the plan are open to speculation, and the most likely event---that there will not be a complete withdrawal---has fueled heated comment, most notably from Obama's own allies.

The truth is that, no matter how fast American forces are withdrawn, the White House understands and agrees with the concept that a significant American presence will be required in Iraq for some time. Obama has been careful to speak about redeploying "combat forces," whose definition in an unconventional conflict is really only meaningless rhetoric. They are all combat forces, no matter what their military occupational specialty. It is the mission that is important.

The Bush administration began to reduce slightly the American footprint in Iraq some time ago, as it became clear that we could no longer sustain the human, financial and national security cost of the deployment, and as we began to make operational headway. The American mission shifted from destroying the insurgency to training the Iraqis to destroy the insurgency, and there has been remarkable success in accomplishing it.

Advice to the president from his national security team has included the sobering reality that for some time to come Iraqis will require training and both tactical and logistical support, and that it will take tens of thousands of Americans to provide it.

Many public and published comments that have addressed this have been laughably uninformed. One averred that the remaining Americans would not be involved in combat and that they would be provided only with sidearms. Neither is correct.

Among the more pathetic observations was that from Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who stated that she thought the proper residual number of Americans in Iraq was 20,000. Her lack of military bona fides notwithstanding (ostensibly she can hire staffers who have some knowledge), a casual approach that takes no notice of the demands of the mission reveals a staggering ignorance of the subject---and one that would be dangerous if President Obama were not as politically strong as he is at the moment.

Whatever is the commitment that we will make in Iraq, it is safe to conclude that it will not end completely in 18 months. Nor will it terminate abruptly, unless the Iraqi government fails catastrophically and the security situation becomes so untenable that a precipitous withdrawal becomes the best course of action. But whether the right number of Americans in Iraq is 50,000 or not, the size of the force will be dictated by the mission, not the other way around. Defense officials who thought otherwise left office three years ago and would find some measure of ironic amusement that among those who shared their bankrupt national security calculus was Nancy Pelosi.

{"contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
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{"commentId":5606601,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Colonel Jacobs I can only imagine what Ray Odierno, Lloyd Austin and some of the other senior officers must have thought when Speaker Pelosi made those comments. On a related note, I'm very disappointed in Jim Jones allowing Dick Holbrooke to bigfoot all over Tony Zinni and install Holbrooke's boy Christopher Hill as the new ambassador to Iraq. Hill has no relevant experience in the region and speaks not a syllable of Arabic unlike General Zinni who has oodles of both. Ryan Crocker has done an outstanding job as ambassador and deserves much more credit than he gets publicly. What I'm seeing so far from the Obama foreign policy team is a president focused primarily on domestic affairs and a "special envoy" in Holbrooke who I think might have thought he, instead of Hillary Clinton, was appointed Secretary of State. Secretary Clinton needs to act and act fast to make sure Holbrooke doesn't coopt her completely when it comes to the administration's foreign policy in the region ranging from Cairo to Islamabad.

{"commentId":5606601,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:29 PM EST
{"commentId":5607468,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

I saw a CNN interview of former President Bill Clinton by John Roberts on 2-16-09. Clinton was asked about the two envoys. Clinton said his wife had a part in their appointment and the purpose of the envoys is rapid information gathering on her behalf. This makes sense to me.

Most importantly, President Clinton said that she is formulating a Middle East policy "that exactly parallels General Petraeus".

I suspect more than hope that much of the public talk suggesting a full departure from Iraq is a cover of sorts. There appears to be two sets of parallel tracks; one set running out, while the other set is running in.

{"commentId":5607468,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 1 vote
#1.1 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:49 PM EST
{"commentId":5609743,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

That might make sense to you but I can assure you that's not Dick Holbrooke's intention. His intention is to be the administration's public face on the region and he intends to be the strongest voice within the administration when it comes to the president's ear on that region as well. That's been his MO since forever.

{"commentId":5609743,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 2 votes
#1.2 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:42 PM EST
{"commentId":5609815,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

Christopher R. Hill to Iraq. This is news.

Have you looked at his credentials:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_R._Hill

Impressive. He has held ambassadorships to Korea, Macedonia, and Poland. He evidently has had considerable dealings with China.

He is an honorary citizen of Macedonia.

Does Col. Jack Jacobs know Christopher Hill?

{"commentId":5609815,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:43 PM EST
{"commentId":5610407,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Thanks for making my point for me. Geesh.

{"commentId":5610407,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 2 votes
#1.4 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:57 PM EST
Reply
{"commentId":5606755,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

Good, balanced article.

{"commentId":5606755,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#2 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:33 PM EST
{"commentId":5642636,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

Thanks. I know of Hill, but I'm not acquainted with him.

{"commentId":5642636,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
    #2.1 - Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:03 AM EST
    {"commentId":5646700,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

    Colonel,

    Yesterday I hurriedly composed "Why did we go to war in Iraq?" at:

    http://amberneve.newsvine.com/_news/2009/02/27/2486826-why-did-we-go-to-war-in-iraq

    Please take a look and add your important input. I value your experience and opinion, especially when you ask tough, probing questions.

    {"commentId":5646700,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
    • 1 vote
    #2.2 - Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:40 PM EST
    Reply
    {"commentId":5607387,"authorDomain":"dc4hilburn"}

    Good article. I am glad to see the President at least has more sense than to just pull the plug, so to speak.

    I was just thinking about the overall spending on Iraq and Afghanistan in light of the Presidents spending plan. Actually, I was recalling the mistaken belief that some voters held before the election that as soon as President Obama took over we would see an instant savings of $10 billion a month. I see that he is asking for what comes to about 10.8 billion a month for fiscal 2010 down from what is currently being spent between the two fronts: approx. $12.3 billion.

    {"commentId":5607387,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"dc4hilburn"}
    • 2 votes
    Reply#3 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:47 PM EST
    {"commentId":5609214,"authorDomain":"agio"}

    I voted for Obama because, among other things, he vowed to end our occupation of Iraq responsibly. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and trust his judgment as to what the best way of doing this is.

    {"commentId":5609214,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"agio"}
      Reply#4 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:30 PM EST
      {"commentId":5618225,"authorDomain":"jodye"}
      he vowed to end our occupation of Iraq responsibly.

      Our "occupation" of Iraq ended quite some time ago. US troops are there now at the request of the Iraqi government under mutual agreement.

      {"commentId":5618225,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jodye"}
      • 2 votes
      #4.1 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:31 PM EST
      Reply
      {"commentId":5614301,"authorDomain":"farmer"}
      The truth is that, no matter how fast American forces are withdrawn, the White House understands and agrees with the concept that a significant American presence will be required in Iraq for some time.

      I find this sentence very vague and maybe misleading. I presume we will remain in Iraq at the pleasure of the Iraqi government. I can foresee that government or one that replaces it asking us to leave much earlier than this seems to indicate.

      {"commentId":5614301,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"farmer"}
        Reply#5 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:09 PM EST
        {"commentId":5642660,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

        The relationship between the US and Iraq is a complex one, but we have plans for a number of contingencies, including bailing out sooner than December 2011, increasing our footprint slightly to accomodate requests by the Iraqis, and staying beyong 2011 if we negotiate a new SOFA. The elections to which you allude are the key independent variable, and we are prepared to exit if asked.

        {"commentId":5642660,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
          #5.1 - Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:08 AM EST
          Reply
          {"commentId":5615862,"authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}

          Colonel Jack:

          a casual approach that takes no notice of the demands of the mission reveals a staggering ignorance of the subject---

          Actually, the staggering ignorance is yours. Let me say why.

          One error that almost all military men make when commenting on military matters is that they conceive of the issue at hand in terms of a function, a function in which the "mission" is a constant and the resources applied (number of troops, etc.) is a variable.

          IOW, "Here's the objective, now what do we need to achieve it?"

          However, that is not necessarily the case. If the mission is variable and not constant, you can plug any number you want into the resources element. Thus, instead of saying Pelosi is ignorant and doesn't understand the demands of the mission mission, since she is in a position to define the mission and you are not, rather, you should ask, "What mission can Pelosi be thinking of that might only require a residual force of 15 to 20 thousand troops?"

          {"commentId":5615862,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}
          • 1 vote
          Reply#6 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:25 PM EST
          {"commentId":5618137,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

          jfxgillis,

          I cannot speak for Col. Jacobs, but if you will permit me to add this . . .

          Today in CNN's Situation Room, the question of the day was, What is the top threat to U.S. security, the economic meltdown or terrorism?

          Iraq was invaded to prevent Al-Qaeda from gaining safe haven there. Whereas it may be argued that at the time of the invasion, the Al-Qaeda presence in Iraq was minimal, or that the Coalition presence incited Islamic militancy, it is important to view the larger, strategic picture.

          Al-Qaeda is a single manifestation of a larger movement in Islam that considers violence as a legitimate method for spreading Islam. Modern Islamic Fascism dates to about 1979, when the Shah of Iran was overthrown by Islamic fundamentalists.

          Because the oil found in the Middle East fuels much of the world's economy, including our own, the threat of militant Islamic Fascism anywhere in the Middle East becomes for us national security issue. Any potential disruption of the oil threatens our economy. The presence of American troops in the oil fields is cost effective because it acts as the guarantor of a steady and stable flow of energy to the West. The cost of energy is key to economic planning in every economy.

          The foregoing factors WILL NOT CHANGE for as long as oil is an important global commodity. So the mission will be complete only when Islamic militancy is no longer viable. At its simplest, Al-Qaeda must be defeated. At it largest, Iran must cease from "spreading" Islamic militancy. Because Iran theoretically, if not materially, supports Hamas and Hezbollah, ultimately the multiple regional problems of the Middle East will likely need to also include addressing and resolving the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. The former U.S. Administration did try to engage the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict through the Quartet and Roadmap approaches. It even expanded regional interest to include the areas in and around the Horn of Africa. See Operations Enduring Freedom.

          Although the Islamic militancy movement has made the Jews and Israel AN issue, Israel is not THE issue, which remains the spread of Islam through violence.

          President George W. Bush recognized ALL of these issues and determined, that at least in part, Democracy is a long-term solution to Fascism. In my opinion, Bush was right. He also stated that Democracy in Iraq was foundational; i.e., the birth-pangs, to use the words of former Secretary Rice. Bush spoke often about the infancy of Democracy in Iraq. So the public was told up front about the issues and timeframes. A young Democracy needs time to grow and it will need to be nurtured.

          Now back to CNN's question of the day, What is the top threat to U.S. security, the economic meltdown or terrorism? Which induces more fear? The loss of your job, or another 9/11-style attack?

          Probably the loss of your job and your family's personal economic security. But please bear in mind that the world is much more complex than your own circle. I do not criticize anyone for looking out for themselves and their families. I think neither Bush nor Obama would criticize them. Rather, I think Bush, Obama and their advisors would agree on what is actually at stake.

          {"commentId":5618137,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
          • 1 vote
          #6.1 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:25 PM EST
          Reply
          {"commentId":5616906,"authorDomain":"nbramia"}

          jfxgillis,

          Col. Jacobs took your consideration into account:

          ...the size of the force will be dictated by the mission, not the other way around.

          His position is most likely predicated on an assumption that any mission that would require merely 20,000 troops (there are currently 142,000) would not only be extremely unlikely, but ultimately untenable.

          In an environment that retains an insurgency (as Iraq will, despite our best efforts and any progress we seem to have made), it is impossible to look at the current relatively calm situation and say, "We could probably maintain order in this environment with 20,000 troops." As soon as this decision is made and the vast majority of troops pull out, these insurgents will come out of the woodworks like so many rats.

          Your view would hold water only if the current relative stability was a result of the permanent eradication of the insurgents - to a large degree, it is not. To continue the pest metaphor, spreading a meager 20,000 troops across a nation the size of California is akin to abandoning a mouse in a pit of snakes (and expecting it to hold its own).

          It is unlikely that the administration would see this any differently. Therefore, Col. Jacob's characterization of the asinine woman two breaths from the presidency is entirely accurate. Her statement was based on smug ignorance, and is every bit as disturbing as Col. Jacobs asserts.

          {"commentId":5616906,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"nbramia"}
            Reply#7 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:16 PM EST
            {"commentId":5617196,"authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}

            Nathan:

            Point taken, but really, actually, not point taken. He paid lip service to the idea, but he really didn't accept that the "mission" is defined by the political branches of government.

            Thus--the very fact that he imposes a set of criteria that implies a mission defintion:

            Whatever is the commitment that we will make in Iraq, it is safe to conclude that it will not end completely in 18 months. Nor will it terminate abruptly, unless the Iraqi government fails catastrophically and the security situation becomes so untenable that a precipitous withdrawal becomes the best course of action.

            shows that he has internalized a sense of mission, a constant, even as he seems to allow for variability.

            To be clear, I am not myself arguing any particular strategic or tactical doctrine. It can be 160,000 troops (Bush) or it can be 15,000 troops (Pelosi). What I'm saying is that when a Constitutional officer like the Speaker of the House says, "20,000" that doesn't mean the Speaker is saying "I think we can achieve what the the Pentagon says we need 50,000 troops for with 30,000 fewer troops." What she means is, "There's no mission in Iraq worth the expense of more than 20,000 troops." That's a political judgement by a high official in the political branches.

            {"commentId":5617196,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}
            • 2 votes
            #7.1 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:32 PM EST
            {"commentId":5618213,"authorDomain":"farmer"}

            jfxgillis, I agree with your comment completely. The supposed arguments by the military seem predicated on performing a mission. In our American form of government the military receives its mission from the President. This President is trying to modify the mission without causing undue harm or alarm to those very military officials who seem unable to accept a reduced mission. I say supposed arguments because I am unsure whether we are yet getting a truthful picture of what is happening in the Middle East and what our military and DoD are really thinking. Our MSM has been shallow and maybe complicit in the misdirection and misinformation we have had for the last eight years or longer. President Obama is doing a Herculean task of bringing sunshine and openess to what is going on in our world. I am giving him a chance to expose the truth of what has happened and to correct past errors. I know he can, I hope he will.

            {"commentId":5618213,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"farmer"}
            • 2 votes
            #7.2 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:30 PM EST
            {"commentId":5618243,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

            Nathan

            You're not in possession of all the facts in this case. See, Jack has a thang for Mizz Pelosi and will brook no one badmouthing his "Nan". He's gets kind of confused with his blood all up in conflating the president's role as commander-in-chief with that of some ditz out of Baltimore by way of San Francisco.

            {"commentId":5618243,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
            • 2 votes
            #7.3 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:32 PM EST
            {"commentId":5618762,"authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}

            Bill:

            Jack has a thang for Mizz Pelosi and will brook no one badmouthing his "Nan".

            He started it.

            Substantively--as I clearly stated, notwithstanding my thing for my Nan, the Speaker of the House, any Speaker, retains authority ex officio derived from the Article I of the Constitution. In particular, the Power of the Purse.

            The Armed Forces do not determine their mission and the President is not a military dictator. It always boggles my mind when you righties get all "originalist" and "Founders and Framers" blah blah on anything that comes along except the military, in which case, the notion of checks and balances and interepretations of intent that could hardly be more solid when it comes to the making of war go right out the window.

            There's a reason why the Framers placed the military in the civilian control of the President and there's a reason why they put strict limits on the ability to appropriate money for war.

            {"commentId":5618762,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}
            • 1 vote
            #7.4 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:05 PM EST
            {"commentId":5618857,"authorDomain":"dc4hilburn"}

            While I am enjoying the discussion on this thread, I must admit I am creeped out by anyone who could have a thing for Nancy. Jfx, since I joined the vine I have always believed you were a brilliant person in discussions. Now I fear you have no common sense:-) j/k

            {"commentId":5618857,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"dc4hilburn"}
            • 2 votes
            #7.5 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:10 PM EST
            {"commentId":5619243,"authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}

            crystal:

            Two things. First, better not read this or this. Second, as I mentioned to Bill a couple of weeks ago, I know from my Google analytics that "nancy pelosi sexy" is one of the top search terms used to access my column directly from Google. Which means there's hundreds of people out there who feel .... well, I suppose I better not finish the thought.

            :^{)>

            {"commentId":5619243,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}
            • 1 vote
            #7.6 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:37 PM EST
            {"commentId":5619340,"authorDomain":"dc4hilburn"}

            jfx: you made me smile this evening! I will reserve further judgement on you. We probably have odd crushes. Mine is only odd because of my age: Morgan Freeman. I think it is his voice that does it!

            {"commentId":5619340,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"dc4hilburn"}
            • 3 votes
            #7.7 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:44 PM EST
            {"commentId":5619460,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

            We all have our burdens to bear in life. Mine's Helen Mirren. ;>)

            {"commentId":5619460,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
            • 3 votes
            #7.8 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:52 PM EST
            Reply
            {"commentId":5619134,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

            Jack, if Nan just went back to tending to what she knows best, spending on anything pretty much except national defense, she'd be fine. But she best leave the decision-making vis-a-vis troop levels on what might actually be required in Iraq to cement the hardwon gains by both US soldiers and Iraqis to people who actually might know something about it. And I'm hear to tell you right now that if Obama thinks he can spend all his time "focusing on the economy like a laser beam" while foreign and defense policy takes the hind teat he's dreaming. If this economic downturn gets really bad look for a lot of political upheaval both in eastern Europe and some of the Russian "near abroad". Putin's still itching to put a big hurtin' on the Baltics, Ukraine and, of course, Georgia.

            {"commentId":5619134,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
            • 2 votes
            Reply#8 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:28 PM EST
            {"commentId":5619384,"authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}

            Bill:

            It's the people who "knew what they were talking about" who, it turned out, didn't know what they were talking about.

            To be perfectly blunt. I'll put Pelosi's October 2002 speech on the floor of the House opposing the IWR up against any speech by any speaker from the same period in support of the IWR. Then we'll match 'em up line-by-line and see who knew what they were talking about and who didn't.

            To be even more blunt, let's see what Colonel Jack himself had to say in Sept/Oct 2002 and match that up with what Pelosi said at the time, then see who has the right to accuse whom of "staggering ignorance."

            {"commentId":5619384,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}
            • 1 vote
            #8.1 - Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:47 PM EST
            Reply
            {"commentId":5701698,"authorDomain":"mikekathycook"}

            It sounded like to me yesterday that the Obama administration intends to leave about 50,000 U.S. troops in Iraq even after the draw-down is completed in August of 2010.

            But since these troops are not supposed to be out and about patrolling or anything, what will they be doing there? Just waiting around to become potential hostages?

            I wonder at what point the Obama administration will have an epiphany and understand that a stable, democratic Iraq right smack dab in the geographic middle of the Middle East is a priceless gift from God?

            Actually, it was a gift from Bush/Cheney and several hundred thousand U.S. warriors who did a heckuva job. Obama may not even comprehend what a jewel Iraq is at the moment until that jewel is gone.

            {"commentId":5701698,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"mikekathycook"}
            • 3 votes
            Reply#9 - Tue Mar 3, 2009 6:59 AM EST
            {"commentId":5708561,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

            I'm just hoping that we can salvage something of what once was the jewel of our own country once Obama and his wrecking crew get through trying to turn us into another Sweden.

            {"commentId":5708561,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
            • 2 votes
            #9.1 - Tue Mar 3, 2009 12:57 PM EST
            Reply
            {"commentId":5804089,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}
            {"commentId":5804089,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
            • 1 vote
            Reply#10 - Sat Mar 7, 2009 7:22 PM EST
            {"commentId":5811502,"authorDomain":"mikekathycook"}

            Sweden has always kind of fascinated me. If you have "old money" there, then life is great. If you are trying to earn your way into being able to leave an estate for your family, one lifetime won't be nearly enough because of the confiscatory tax rates. For many years Sweden tacitly discriminated against persons of color who wanted to immigrate to Sweden and then just wanted to squat, waiting for new jobs that the Swedish economy was unlikely to ever generate.

            I kind of feel sorry for the immigrants, because many of them came from cultures which were hard-working and entrepeneurial. Their every instinct on becoming residents of Sweden was to open little shops and restaurants, or small service businesses. However the Swedish bureaucratic culture is downright hostile to any type of new enterprises. The strong feeling prevails in Stockholm that new businesses are not needed. Existing businesses have been grandfathered in for ages and they need to be protected from upstarts in every fashion. Environmental and anti-growth mindsets and laws greatly facilitate such protectionism. No good Swedish bureaucrat is ever going to let someone from Turkey open their own little smokeshop, because (1) smoking is bad for you, and (2) if your last name doesn't end in "son" or "sen" what are you doing trying to open a business?

            I don't know if this is still true, but I was also told that the Swedish version of free higher education is highly tilted towards the status quo in everything. If a government ministry projects that there will only be one job opening for a PhD. in art history, for instance, and that job won't appear until 2015, then that is what Sweden will educate--one person to fill that slot. Since Sweden does not anticipate having any openings for astronauts in 2015, good luck getting the education and training to be one.

            Even Sweden has come to understand that Saab has no niche in the world automotive industry. I always felt that Saab should have concentrated on producing a car that transformed into an airplane, but apparently whoever was tapped by their education ministry to be a captain of industry was not inclined to bold thinking.

            The bad thing about Sweden is that the post-Christian ministers of culture will make sure your grandson or grand-daughter at least experiment with bi-sexuality. The good thing is that their women's beach volley ball teams are the best with lots of enthusiastic male and female spectators.

            Lastly, Sweden has a stubborn little military culture that tends to purchase unique and innovative weapons systems. Their army and navy will be pushed very strongly into autonomic robot warfare because, hey, Swedes just aren't making enough new Swedes anymore. I really love their air-cushion coastal patrol vessel.

            {"commentId":5811502,"threadId":"512618","contentId":"2476536","authorDomain":"mikekathycook"}
              Reply#11 - Sun Mar 8, 2009 11:56 AM EDT
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