{"contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

The Politics of Torture, Part 1

This week saw a flurry of discourse about the ways in which the United States has interrogated detainees captured during operations against terrorists. Among the more interesting revelations is that two detainees, Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, underwent the technique of "waterboarding," designed to convince the subject that he is drowning.

First , it appears that they were waterboarded many scores of times. Executive Branch memos that were leaked also described other unpleasant techniques, some of which were used and others that were not. There will be further revelations, particularly about the involvement of members of both the Cabinet and Congress who knew and tacitly approved the techniques. And there is some evidence that the waterboarding was performed before approval of the technique.

There are many complex questions raised by all of this, and they will be examined in the media and in Congress in exquisite---and perhaps mind-numbing---detail for some time to come. But a summary of the major questions may prove enlightening.

First, terrorists are very bad people, the world would be a better place if they were vaporized, and we and our allies need to do a better job of killing them wherever we find them. In addition to other equally important goals, our mission in Afghanistan includes the objectives of killing terrorists and of teaching indigenous forces to kill terrorists, and we will be successful if Afghans learn to perform this task well.

But the enemy's ruthlessness notwithstanding, civilized people don't kill, maim or torture captives who are unable to defend themselves. A fair fight---or even an unfair fight in which you have overwhelming combat power---is a reasonable tool to use to achieve security, but once an enemy combatant is under your control, he doesn't have to be coddled, but he must be treated humanely.

I have spent some time in combat and can report that the easiest and most reliable way to glean information from the enemy is to gain their confidence, often with medical care and food. I recall visiting Guantanamo a few years ago, where interrogators got hard-case al Qaeda operatives to speak freely by giving them candy bars and American magazines they liked to read. If you torture somebody, he will tell you what he thinks you want to hear so that you will stop making him miserable. Once in a great while you may get some scrap of useful information, but almost always you will get no actionable intelligence. And the fact that the authorities thought it necessary to find circuitous ways to justify waterboarding testifies that they grasped how reprehensible it is to torture captives. Well, then, why do it?

One explanation is that the government wanted intelligence quickly. Information that leads to tactical intelligence is useful only if it is fresh, and most things that captives say, no matter how accurate, has a short shelf-life. Getting captives adequately comfortable to talk freely takes time. But although torture is quicker, it produces almost nothing useful.

The president's decision to release the memos is a different story, however, and will almost certainly prove to impede exactly the kinds of things Obama wants to accomplish internationally.

Next time: more about the way in which this decision was made and the hypocrisy of the impending Congressional feeding frenzy.

{"contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
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{"commentId":6699934,"authorDomain":"pennid"}

I quote you, "But the enemy's ruthlessness notwithstanding, civilized people don't kill, maim or torture captives who are unable to defend themselves." Congratulations, you hit the nail on the head!

{"commentId":6699934,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"pennid"}
  • 9 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:22 AM EDT
{"commentId":6700310,"authorDomain":"Blearc"}
The president's decision to release the memos is a different story, however, and will almost certainly prove to impede exactly the kinds of things Obama wants to accomplish internationally.

Word of mouth is a very powerful and normally not very reliable tool for getting infomation out. Considering the 500 that were released from Gitmo alone, as well as the thousands or so from the prisons in Afganistand and Iraq and our black sites, I think the damage of these actions did not come from Obama releasing some memos.

That logic is akin to saying "We better not pursue that murderer, because the public might not like the fact we've let them get away with three so far.

{"commentId":6700310,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"Blearc"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:01 AM EDT
{"commentId":6702193,"authorDomain":"eric-albert"}

COL. JACK JACOBS:

You need a larger social parameter, to measure, the validity of your arguments and also its moral center. Both parties are now involved in BI PARTISAN COVER UP to hide the outcome of their fascist foreign policies, Empire, which includes also their support for War crimes and war criminals in Zionist Israel.

Ideological lies leads to Criminal policies, like the attempt to torture people to get them to admit an "Al qaida" connection, to justify an illegal war of aggression in Iraq, now followed by more criminal policies, like torture, rendition, illegal detentions, endless detentions, and spying.

For that reason the Nuremberg Nazi trials used the argument that Aggression is the "highest crime carrying within it" ....all other crimes. The fact that both class parties, both imperial parties, supported these crimes and crimina foreign policies is also the reason that OBAMA, and the democrats are helping to cover up BUSH'S CRIMES.

To help you get started in a larger social and moral parameter, read this article:

The Democrats' Teachable Moment on Torture: Top of the Heap

http://eric-albert.newsvine.com/_news/2009/04/25/2731948-the-democrats-teachable-moment-on-torture-top-of-the-heap-

{"commentId":6702193,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"eric-albert"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:36 PM EDT
{"commentId":6704496,"authorDomain":"bbednarz2007"}
William BednarzDeleted
Reply
{"commentId":6702326,"authorDomain":"farmer"}
And there is some evidence that the waterboarding was performed before approval of the technique.

Colonel, I am trying very hard to understand your reasoning and your experience. I have spent more than "some" time in combat and I don't think "approval" should be a true soldier's criteria for acceptance of orders. Morality and decency are not subjects for approval except by the entire human race. Torture is torture and we all know what it is. Some of us want to justify some forms of torture for expediency while the efficacy of the use of torture is only to appease our individual lust for revenge.

When I drove by a hootch and witnessed odd looking soldiers (CIA types notoriously wear shabby uniforms) hooking wires up to a man's testicles I knew it was torture. When I witnessed a young Infantry 2nd Lt. shoot a montagnard in the belly with no cause, I knew it was a crime. When I realized US Army Colonels were attacking all persons in Free Fire Zones, I knew we were into genocide. These Free Fire Zones, by the way, were coveted by the local Province Chief for his own use.

So why didn't I do something about it? I did! I informed Nixon and his crew who quietly kicked me upstairs. I continued my efforts to enlighten authority until I left the service in 1973.

So, you are right about one thing. Politics! Yes, politics, and not policy, is guiding our military and intelligence efforts. Until the US government realizes it is not above the law, that it is subject to perversion through politics and that there are individuals and groups who will use government force and influence to garner their private views, this country is in big trouble.

{"commentId":6702326,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"farmer"}
  • 7 votes
Reply#4 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:48 PM EDT
{"commentId":6709276,"authorDomain":"jaymack"}

So, you are right about one thing. Politics! Yes, politics, and not policy, is guiding our military and intelligence efforts.

Oldfogey….you are right.

Both the military and other governmental agencies are guilty as sin for allowing this mess to go as far as it did and then they all work together to keep things under the rug thru security classifications. The military had the chance to operate the detention facility at Gitmo properly when Marine Brig Gen Lehnert went right to the military policy books and started his task to open up the Gitmo prison camp in Jan 02. He tried but was reassigned at the early stages of his operation per a WaPo article I seeded in Feb. WaPo may have archived it by now so I went with the seed, go direct to article, I think the time frame is close to the torture time frame.

.

The military put the right/proper foot forward at the start but the politicians found people who would operate outside of policy structures and replaced Lehnert and thus continued on with their game. My question is where do these dumb people come from. We need stronger leadership within the ranks of both the military and other governmental agencies that are not afraid to show the proper moral backbone that this country was not afraid to show not so long ago. Even politicians need to adjust their ways and stand up when they see a wrong. Yes, politicians can be honest if they want to. I can think of Atty Gen Elliot Richardson saying no to a presidential order from President Nixon and we had the “Saturday night massacre”. Hell, I myself disobeyed a direct order, but a bad order, from an officer when I was only an “E-3” in the Navy. Did n’t stand a chance and would lose no matter which choice I made but I did what I thought to be the right thing at the time. When given a bad order, what can a person in the military do today? Maybe someone can help me with an answer. There are many good people leaving the military due to this Gitmo cloud hanging over the military and indeed the country itself. The military will have one view only if things keep going as they are today.

I am in complete agreement with Eugene Robinson in that what was done was indeed illegal. His article is here. That should be the agreed upon starting point to when we as a Nation try to make sense of this mess.

{"commentId":6709276,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"jaymack"}
  • 3 votes
#4.1 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:46 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":6703226,"authorDomain":"lproyect"}

Jacobs wrote, "First, terrorists are very bad people, the world would be a better place if they were vaporized, and we and our allies need to do a better job of killing them wherever we find them." Of course, that is unless they are on our payroll. We paid anti-Castro terrorists to down a Cuban civilian airliner and then an American judge let the perpetrator out of jail. We also paid Afghan jihadists to shoot a missile that brought down a civilian airliner over Kabul. This was okay, of course, because the Kabul government was our enemy. The double standard is enough to induce projectile vomiting.

{"commentId":6703226,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"lproyect"}
    Reply#5 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:02 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6770450,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

    There is an anecdote that many report is not fabricated, and it encapsulates the difficulty of ascribing to absolutes in a complex world. About Samoza, the dictator of Nicaragua at the time, Harry Truman remarked, "He's a bastard, but he's our bastard." While I think we have made life difficult for ourselves by supporting bad people and movements, including jihadists in Afghanistan against the Russians, there is a difference between that, as ill-advised as it is, and torturing captives.

    {"commentId":6770450,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
    • 2 votes
    #5.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:31 AM EDT
    Reply
    {"commentId":6704069,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

    Col. Jacobs, I have no problem whatever with your assessment here. I am curious, however, about the foundation you have for the following:

    But the enemy's ruthlessness notwithstanding, civilized people don't kill, maim or torture captives who are unable to defend themselves.

    The relevant document, of course, is the

    {"commentId":6704069,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
    • 1 vote
    Reply#6 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:14 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6704608,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

    Newsvine is buggy today and managed to eat all three edits of my comment so let's try this again. . .

    Col. Jacobs, I have no problem whatever with your assessment here. I am curious, however, about the foundation you have for the following:

    But the enemy's ruthlessness notwithstanding, civilized people don't kill, maim or torture captives who are unable to defend themselves.

    The relevant document, of course, is the Third Geneva Convention and Articles 3 and 4 thereof:

    Article 3

    In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

    1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

    To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

    (a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

    (b) Taking of hostages;

    (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

    (d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

    2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

    An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

    The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

    The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

    Article 4

    A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

    1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

    2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

    (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

    (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

    (c) That of carrying arms openly;

    (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

    3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

    Leaving aside for the moment the question of the utility of harsh interrogation techniques, can you tell me why members of al Qaeda should be provided Geneva protections under the relevant document as they clearly do not meet the standards for such as they clearly fail the test under subparas (b) through (d) above? Further, has it not been the custom in warfare since classical antiquity to treat such combatants in the following manner: questioning for intelligence purposes followed by summary execution?

    Further, at least in the case of KSM it's not even questionable as to his identity as an al Qaeda operative since he freely (along with Ramzi bin al Shihhb) admitted to his role in an interview with Yosri Fouda of al Jazeera in 2002 prior to his apprehension in Rawalpindi by US and Pakistani authorities. I would also surmise (although I cannot prove it obviously) that Jordanian intelligence probably confirmed Abu Zubaydah's linkage to al Qaeda to the US prior to his apprehension. As to the third waterboarding "victim", the Saudi Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri even prior to 9/11 he had been linked to the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen and I would wager that here too his role in al Qaeda was confirmed to US authorities by intelligence services in the region prior to his arrest in the UAE in 2002.

    I believe it is important to draw distinctions here. In my view, detainees swept up on a battlefield in Afghanistan under sometimes questionable circumstances or men detained in Iraq at Abu Ghraib should be treated with full Geneva protections. The same should not apply to such men as the three at issue. The case of bin Laden's driver Hamdan is of another sort entirely as well.

    {"commentId":6704608,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
    • 5 votes
    #6.1 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:59 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6762189,"authorDomain":"tbartlett2"}

    I don't think you know what you're talking about.

    I suspect you voted for McCain and there is no greater authority on the subject than he. Perhaps you should listen to a man who has walked the "mile" in his shoes!

    I am a vet, I love my country, but you are dead wrong.

    {"commentId":6762189,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"tbartlett2"}
    • 2 votes
    #6.2 - Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:25 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6765721,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

    Well, that's very nice. Now do you have a point to make? I fail to see one in your comment. Do you have something of substance, anything, to offer on the points at issue in the Third Geneva Convention?

    {"commentId":6765721,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
    • 3 votes
    #6.3 - Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:58 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6766045,"authorDomain":"Roybean"}

    Well made points, and indisputable, Bill, but for the subsequent decisions of the SC which classified these folks differently, and gave them the rights of "persons in the US." All after the fact. Then this recent surge of godliness by The One, (PBUH) where Thou Shalt Not Traumatize even a mass murderer, lest you become one, became revealed truth.

    In the context previous to all these revealed truths, the treatment of The Three as special cases was what was once known as Common Sense. They were not the kind of people who would be kept away from the upper echelons of US intelligence, as if the first solidier who came across Goebbels had dibs on findng out what he knew. This overwhelming urge to explain that US soldiers are not routinely torturing captives is to allow the issue to be diverted.

    {"commentId":6766045,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"Roybean"}
    • 2 votes
    #6.4 - Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:27 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6766130,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

    Well, I cannot shoot Anthony Kennedy although I've been sorely tempted at times.

    {"commentId":6766130,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
    • 2 votes
    #6.5 - Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:36 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6766924,"authorDomain":"Roybean"}

    Youch...I know that came out wrong.

    To the good health of the nine. : )

    {"commentId":6766924,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"Roybean"}
    • 1 vote
    #6.6 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:57 AM EDT
    Reply
    {"commentId":6704162,"authorDomain":"ElliePhat"}
    I have spent some time in combat and can report that the easiest and most reliable way to glean information from the enemy is to gain their confidence, often with medical care and food.

    Often yes, but not always, right? Wouldn't you say an enemy would be most motivated to resist such confidence in cases when he had knowledge that imminent threats to the captors' lands are present? Wouldn't another fly in the ointment be the culture of a captured enemy? Say, a culture that values suffering and martyrs' death as virtues?

    {"commentId":6704162,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"ElliePhat"}
    • 2 votes
    Reply#7 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:22 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6748400,"authorDomain":"Roybean"}

    Good points, Ellie. Also, the colonel assumes that time is not a factor, so he can woo the terrorist over a period of weeks or months with romantic dinners and late evenings whispering sweet nothings on the veranda, until at some point one can complete the other's sentences, if not the other's thoughts. Finally, they have to remove the soldier assigned to Khalid because he starts referring to "our song," whenever "Raindrops keep falling on my head..." plays on the radio, and complaining that he's not getting enough time with "Khali-poo."

    {"commentId":6748400,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"Roybean"}
    • 3 votes
    #7.1 - Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:58 AM EDT
    {"commentId":6748675,"authorDomain":"lambchop"}

    Very much doubt the Col has any intentions of wooing terrorists, dining with them, or sharing sweet nothings. My guess is he is considerably more interested in getting real information that might actually lead to "lead balls falling on their heads" than singing duets about rain drops!

    {"commentId":6748675,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"lambchop"}
    • 2 votes
    #7.2 - Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:11 AM EDT
    {"commentId":6776217,"authorDomain":"ElliePhat"}

    Judge, true. Just because we cannot hear a time bomb ticking doesn't mean there isn't one.

    {"commentId":6776217,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"ElliePhat"}
    • 2 votes
    #7.3 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:40 PM EDT
    Reply
    {"commentId":6707855,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

    There is a difference between torture and extreme interrogation techniques.

    "High value information" would justify extreme interrogation techniques during a time of ACUTE CRISIS.

    The techniques used would have to be ratcheted up according to the value of the information CONFIRMED THROUGH INDEPENDENT CORROBORATION.

    Information derived from interrogation is sensitive, and thus not subject to public review. This is not a problem because we practice a Republican-Democratic style of government, meaning that we elect people to conduct public business for us.

    The problem occurs when the bi-partisan representatives entrusted with this review POLITICIZE the issue they fully know is confidential, and thus, not subject to verification by the public. Politicians are using this issue for political purposes, probably to draw attention away from some issue(s) that does or do matter. The economy matters, for example.

    From a policy position, there is no difference between the Bush and Obama Administrations. Both presidents have publicly stated that America does not torture.

    Regarding the notoriety for allegations of torture and abuses by members of the United States Army Reserve during the post-invasion period at Abu Ghraib, I have favored razing the prison as a strong symbolic gesture that the humiliations perpetrated there do not represent the philosophy of the United States. The events at Abu Ghraib appear to have been the result of a failure of local command leadership rather than the preferred outcome of a U.S. policy of information gathering. The commander in charge at the time of the abuses should be appropriately disciplined.

    {"commentId":6707855,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
    • 2 votes
    Reply#8 - Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:18 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6747087,"authorDomain":"Blearc"}

    Thats some strong rose colored glasses your wearing, take a look at the memo's, read them, look at the time lines between when the admistration was told that it was torture and the memo dates.

    A few bad apples in Abu as Rumsfeld called them, were just following orders.

    You post attempted to be very diplomatic but lacks quite a bit of data to get to those conclusions.

    {"commentId":6747087,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"Blearc"}
    • 1 vote
    #8.1 - Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:50 AM EDT
    Reply
    {"commentId":6712728,"authorDomain":"kcolliver"}

    Al Qaeda captivies are NOT POWs.

    Common Article 4 of the Geneva Convention describes what it takes to be afforded POW status:

    Article 4

    A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

    1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

    2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

    (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

    (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

    (c) That of carrying arms openly;

    (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

    3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

    4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

    5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

    6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

    Al Qaeda captives are "Illegal Combatants" not POWs and Not criminal detainees. They have no rights under the US Constitution.

    The argument that our POWs will be mistreated if we mistreat Al Qaeda is specious. Al Qaeda cuts off their heads. Name a conflict in which our POWs were not mistreated?

    {"commentId":6712728,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"kcolliver"}
      Reply#9 - Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:13 AM EDT
      {"commentId":6729368,"authorDomain":"lambchop"}

      Water Boarding is silly. If the military wanted effective ways to torture it's prisoners... they should try some of the "beauty" techniches women use daily... lazer hair removal is my suggestion... particularly painful on extra hairy dark skinned folk... strap 'em down and go for the "bikini" area, hairy backs are equally sensitive. (This would also improve their looks!) Or simply threaten to send them back to middle school, I remember that as the most torturous time of my life!

      {"commentId":6729368,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"lambchop"}
      • 2 votes
      Reply#10 - Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:18 PM EDT
      {"commentId":6729470,"authorDomain":"ElliePhat"}

      I like the way you think here:

      they should try some of the "beauty" techniches women use daily... lazer hair removal is my suggestion... particularly painful on extra hairy dark skinned folk... strap 'em down and go for the "bikini" area, hairy backs are equally sensitive.

      But, lasers are so costly. Just go for the hot wax.

      {"commentId":6729470,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"ElliePhat"}
      • 2 votes
      #10.1 - Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:23 PM EDT
      Reply
      {"commentId":6741142,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

      The United States Constitution guarantees "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" to CITIZENS of the United States.

      Terrorist Islamic combatants are not American citizens. They have vowed to destroy the very liberties some liberals would extend to them.

      {"commentId":6741142,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
      • 2 votes
      Reply#11 - Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:24 PM EDT
      {"commentId":6741951,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

      At least in the West we can express our opinions through a free press. Consider the objectives of Islamic Fascism as reflected in the Iranian Constitution:

      http://www.iranchamber.com/government/laws/constitution.php

      {"commentId":6741951,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
      • 2 votes
      #11.1 - Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:21 PM EDT
      {"commentId":6747180,"authorDomain":"Blearc"}

      Citizens or not, we have agreed numerous times to behave like adults and not torture. Including with a treaty that Reagan signed. Heck most of the people on the right defending the practice stated the importance of staying by our national morals:

      Here's Newt to the Chinese in 97:

      FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: OCTOBER 30, 1997


      SPEAKER'S STATEMENT ON VISIT OF PRESIDENT JIANG
      Washington, D.C. -- House Speaker Newt Gingrich released the following statement today following his meeting with Chinese President Jiang Zemin.

      "As I said in China this spring, there is no place for abuse in what must be considered the family of man. There is no place for torture and arbitrary detention. There is no place for forced confessions. There is no place for intolerance of dissent." "While we walked through the Rotunda. I explained to President Jiang how the roots of American rule of law go back more than 700 years, to the signing of the Magna Carta. The foundation of American values, therefore, is not a passing priority or a temporary trend

      {"commentId":6747180,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"Blearc"}
      • 2 votes
      #11.2 - Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:55 AM EDT
      {"commentId":7093052,"authorDomain":"kperodin"}

      Neron Kesar _

      The United States Constitution guarantees "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" to CITIZENS of the United States.

      From my perspective, you have considerably diminished your positive human attributes by mentally reserving those rules for "CITIZENS of the United States". Globalizing this noble goal is a worthy cause.

      I will add this footnote. You are in vogue: Your views go against that of Christianity; this seems to be the new trend. "Thy brothers keeper" has lost its meaning and should be rephrased "Thy American brothers keeper" for local consumption.

      {"commentId":7093052,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"kperodin"}
      • 1 vote
      #11.3 - Fri May 15, 2009 9:26 AM EDT
      {"commentId":7097283,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

      Seriously, I am not rationalizing torture. I do not advocate torture. The United States does not advocate torture, by policy. But I am practical. We face an UNCONVENTIONAL violent threat from Islamic extremists. The benefit of the doubt passed on 9/11. Al-Qaeda does not recognize the Geneva Conventions; Al-Qaeda wants to destroy the West and all of its beneficent laws.

      I prefer peace and peaceful tactics, but as stated before, I depart from the philosophy of Jesus Christ when He said, "[R]esist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matthew 5:39).

      This is closer to my position: "He drew me out of many waters; . . . I have pursued mine enemies, and destroyed them; and turned not again until I had consumed them. And I have consumed them, and wounded them, that they could not arise" (2 Samuel 22:17, 38, 39).

      {"commentId":7097283,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
      • 1 vote
      #11.4 - Fri May 15, 2009 11:52 AM EDT
      Reply
      {"commentId":6768754,"authorDomain":"WhippedGerbil"}

      With respect to Colonel Jacobs, he realizes the need to extract information from a detainee in a timely manner while the data is still viable.

      However, gaining his confidence takes time. Okay, I'll give you that one.

      Next question: absent torture or "aggressive, coercive interrogation," whichever you call it, how do you get someone to spill the beans? How many "pretty pleases" does it take to get to the center of a terrorist? By the time you've "gained his confidence," which a decadent Western infidel likely never will, his intel is worthless and you're stuck holding someone you can't imprison or let go.

      What do you do to question a detained terrorist and get useful information? I see a lot of quandary in the article and no solution.

      {"commentId":6768754,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"WhippedGerbil"}
      • 1 vote
      Reply#12 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:48 AM EDT
      {"commentId":6776098,"authorDomain":"keyboard-jockey1"}

      Col Jacobs,

      Wouldn't acts of terrorism be described as psychological torture? Where do I go to have the terrorist, sorry I mean man made disasters investigated?

      {"commentId":6776098,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"keyboard-jockey1"}
      • 1 vote
      Reply#13 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:36 PM EDT
      {"commentId":7091927,"authorDomain":"kperodin"}

      Col Jacobs —

      But the enemy's ruthlessness notwithstanding, civilized people don't kill, maim or torture captives who are unable to defend themselves.

      This affirmation does it for me, and I thank you for stating it.

      A fair fight---or even an unfair fight in which you have overwhelming combat power---is a reasonable tool to use to achieve security...

      You are describing here the mindset of the society I want to belong to. I will add the following without apologies:

        Those who need expert advice in order to determine what is torture and what is not, have already lost their moral compasses.

      I find it disheartening to have to state this as a singular idea. I would have preferred for that statement to elicit a resounding "Duh!" from most.

      {"commentId":7091927,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"kperodin"}
      • 2 votes
      Reply#14 - Fri May 15, 2009 8:14 AM EDT
      {"commentId":7404344,"authorDomain":"philrob60"}

      if america wants to torture, then at least have the courage not to sign any treaties, how can you say what we do is legal, unless they are saying when america tortures, it is not torture, just enhancement,whatever, just fill in the blank.

      {"commentId":7404344,"threadId":"562878","contentId":"2723504","authorDomain":"philrob60"}
      • 1 vote
      Reply#15 - Mon Jun 1, 2009 10:31 PM EDT
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