{"contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

The Politics of Torture, Part 2

When Franklin Roosevelt died, the fact that we had been developing nuclear weapons came as a big surprise to Harry Truman, his successor. You would expect that a person of such stature as the vice-president would be involved in something as important as the Manhattan Project, but that was not the way things were done during World War II.

Things are very different now. The bureaucracy is much bigger, government's responsibilities are more wide-ranging and complex, and nearly every action is staffed with such paralyzing thoroughness that it is a wonder decisions are made at all. Executive decisions are not made in isolation, and deciding to use coercive interrogation measures on captives was no different. Memos and other data reveal that there was a large number of highly placed officials who were involved in the decision to conduct waterboarding, and that there was a lively debate---and not a little objection---to the measure.

The release of the memos has engendered a great outcry in Congress, many of whose members are now noisily indignant that our government would engage in such uncivilized behavior, and some have already begun making life difficult for Obama by publicly disagreeing with his decision not to pursue inquiries into official culpability for the decision. But, as Pogo so accurately observed decades ago, "We have met the enemy, and he is us." A substantial number of our national legislators were cognizant of the tactic and at least tacitly approved it. 

It is distressing that we should not be surprised. Only a small percentage of Congress has military service, and almost all those who have served did so 40 years ago. Very few have experience in armed combat, their official biographies notwithstanding, and only the most recent veterans have captured enemy troops on the unconventional battlefield and understand the dynamics that produce actionable intelligence. It is easy to see how such people, even those elevated by our political process to high office, can be convinced to agree with things about which they are largely ignorant.

More troubling, however, is the hypocrisy that underpins officials' hysteria surrounding the issue. Many of those who are now vociferously indidignant are the same people who acquiesced when the measures were briefed. Congress has awarded itself a measure of oversight, and it is disturbing when Congress does not exercise it but complains bitterly when patently objectionable activities over which it has some sway are undertaken. Perhaps we should be used to self-serving sanctimony from our leaders, but that doesn't make it any less distasteful.

And what of Congress's convening  a "truth commission" to assess culpability among Executive Branch officials for the decision? President Obama is on record opposing such a thing, and many have called it a corrosive, third word-style precedent that will hinder decisive action in the future, precisely when we may need decisiveness the most.  

But the president's opinion may not matter. In the end, Congress does what it wishes, bestowed with the overpowering powers in Article 1 of the Constitution and secure in the comfort of knowing that the single best predictor of election to Congress is incumbency.

{"contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
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{"commentId":6776124,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Col. Jacobs one can only imagine what the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid & Co.-- not to mention the president -- would have made of FDR's wartime practices of interning tens of thousands of Americans based on nothing more than their ethnic background or his decision to form military tribunals for the trials of unlawful combatants as memorialized in the Ex Parte Quirin SCOTUS decision. In my view, leaving aside the merits of using such methods as waterboarding on three mass murderers what much of this comes down to is a judgment as to whether we're really engaged in a war with a determined and ruthless enemy or not. Unfortunately, I believe many of the members of the majority party at this time come down in the negative on that proposition.

{"commentId":6776124,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:37 PM EDT
{"commentId":6777071,"authorDomain":"kentraci1011"}

Bill if it's a war what Flag do we capture. With whom shall we sign an armistace. Is there a politcal entity? a Geographical one? We have met the enmy and he is US.

{"commentId":6777071,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"kentraci1011"}
  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:07 PM EDT
{"commentId":6778778,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

I would advise you to read up some on the concept of asymmetrical warfare as practiced by such groups as al Qaeda. After you've done so, I'll be happy to talk with you. Until then you can start getting smarter here.

{"commentId":6778778,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 4 votes
#1.2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:31 PM EDT
{"commentId":6780403,"authorDomain":"kentraci1011"}
In my view, leaving aside the merits of using such methods as waterboarding on three mass murderers what much of this comes down to is a judgment as to whether we're really engaged in a war with a determined and ruthless enemy or not. Unfortunately, I believe many of the members of the majority party at this time come down in the negative on that proposition.

Sorry Bill I was asking you to clarify your statement.

{"commentId":6780403,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"kentraci1011"}
  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:52 PM EDT
{"commentId":6831969,"authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}

Moreover, what's your point? What are you trying to justify? What of America's goals are accomplished via torture? The information gained is unreliable. It weakens the "hearts and minds" movement. It's not who we are or what we're about. What about it do you find so valuable?

I can understand why policy makers have created this absurd defense of their actions, but to see those in the civilian sector try and drag this into a grey area (particularly impressive for a typically black-and-white crowd) has me confused.

{"commentId":6831969,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}
    #1.4 - Fri May 1, 2009 12:22 PM EDT
    Reply
    {"commentId":6782415,"authorDomain":"Blearc"}

    Personally i don't think this belongs in either the Executive or the Legislative branch. Let the Judiciary take this over. I've heard calls for a panel of three retired judges and seems to me the least political of the suggestions.

    If crimes were committed then prosecute. But the arguement of its an outrage only because the memo's were released is hogwash. The outrage is what has been done in our name.

    {"commentId":6782415,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"Blearc"}
    • 5 votes
    Reply#2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:17 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6782424,"authorDomain":"wainiha3"}

    We wrote and signed into our law the Geneva Conventions.  They forbid torture.

    We passed our own laws against torture.  We violated all the laws.

    That should answer the question about torture and prosecutions.

    If not consider this.  It is proven that our torture has caused a huge influx of volunteers into joining Al Qaeda.  Therefore, if we know this and continue to torture or don't publicly refute it by investigating those that enabled, ordered and did the torturing we are aiding recruitment into the very organization that we are claiming to fight.  We are enabling them to be able to kill our men and women more.

     

    {"commentId":6782424,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"wainiha3"}
    • 3 votes
    Reply#3 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:17 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6783220,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
    It is proven that our torture has caused a huge influx of volunteers into joining Al Qaeda.

    Actually, that's not true in the least. Read the links.

    {"commentId":6783220,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
    • 5 votes
    #3.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:27 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6783846,"authorDomain":"kentraci1011"}

    Thats from 2005? Do you read the stuff your linking to? Can you summarize?

    {"commentId":6783846,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"kentraci1011"}
    • 2 votes
    #3.2 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:35 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6788361,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

    I'm not obliged to do your research for you. Try reading the first link which is to a long New Republic article by Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank entitled The Unraveling: The jihadist revolt agains bin Laden. It's from last summer.

    {"commentId":6788361,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
    • 3 votes
    #3.3 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6789519,"authorDomain":"kentraci1011"}

    It's your research. If you want to quote a refence to make your point go ahead. You want to attach a link to back up your quote so I know you didn't just make it up great! But to just say read this or read that so I can educate myself in your way of thinking is arrogant and dismissive.

    {"commentId":6789519,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"kentraci1011"}
    • 3 votes
    #3.4 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:03 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6801548,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

    I cannot help the fact that your ignorance is surpassed only by your insolence.

    {"commentId":6801548,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
    • 3 votes
    #3.5 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:55 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6831606,"authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}

    Ever notice that you talk like General Zod, Bill?

    {"commentId":6831606,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}
      #3.6 - Fri May 1, 2009 12:08 PM EDT
      {"commentId":6832391,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

      Is that the renegade general from Krypton?

      {"commentId":6832391,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
      • 1 vote
      #3.7 - Fri May 1, 2009 12:37 PM EDT
      {"commentId":6832419,"authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}

      Indeed! And we must bow before him!

      {"commentId":6832419,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}
        #3.8 - Fri May 1, 2009 12:39 PM EDT
        {"commentId":6833127,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

        Why? Clark Kent is a better role model.

        {"commentId":6833127,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
        • 1 vote
        #3.9 - Fri May 1, 2009 1:07 PM EDT
        {"commentId":6833517,"authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}

        Because otherwise he'll attempt to make us feel small on the Internet, I suppose.

        {"commentId":6833517,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}
          #3.10 - Fri May 1, 2009 1:21 PM EDT
          {"commentId":6835329,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

          Hmmm, perhaps you are making an important point, a point that needs to be heard. Please explain further.

          {"commentId":6835329,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
          • 1 vote
          #3.11 - Fri May 1, 2009 2:37 PM EDT
          Reply
          {"commentId":6785690,"authorDomain":"InoFulwell"}

          The Geneva convention states that water-boarding is torture. We tried Japanese soldiers as "war criminals" for doing the very same thing in WW II.

          When are the hyper-opinionated going to quit trying to sell everyone else an "end justifies the means" style of pseudo-justice while they decry the ethical fall of America?

          Trying to justify what has been called torture for centuries simply reminds me of those who thought the dunking stools in Salem, Massachusetts, were good tests of a person's belief system.

          A convoluted rationalization of bigotry, hate and discrimination is what brought the world class warfare, slavery, persecution of gays and lesbians, decades of voter suppression aimed at women and blacks, segregation, "separate but (far from) equal", an arrogance first described in the book, "The Ugly American", Fundies, Bush, Cheney and a stupid Governor in Texas who threatens secession while he begs for flu vaccine.

          It is amazing to me just how far some people will tilt when their only guidance for so many years in a row is the same ilk that first brought us the Crusades a Millennium ago. 

          Yep, the "America - Love It Or Leave It" crowd has yet to see the far right fraternity they founded as what hatched the worship of unbridled deregulation and a notion that a completely free market is bound to evolve into survival of the richest and enslavement of the rest.

          The last straw is the emptiness of Radio Rightyland's attempt to blame Obama for marching America toward socialism.

          I wonder who socialized the police, the fire fighters, the military, the pony express, the USPS, the interstate highway system, the space race, the criminal justice system, the courts, the schools, the building codes, the traffic grids, the hydro-electric plants ... well, they are the same people who went to "Tea Parties" to whine about unlevied taxes while they tried to sell the Hummers they bought when Bush's one year business write-off incentive created a faux demand for vehicles that burn gas faster idling than most pumps can spew gasoline.

          They scoff at climate change and when confronted with real facts about environmental damages, they say it's cyclical and allow their lifestyles to exacerbate it no matter what the root cause and they do this waiting for "The Rapture" to rescue their souls from the chaos their greed has wreaked upon civilization.

          And somewhere in the distance you can hear one of their "prosperity prophets" tout a ministry of self-immersion even though Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you that it is easier for a camel to thread the eye of a needlle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."

          Amen Brotha but I'm not really MAD. I'm just a little hacked that Dubya didn't OK stem cell research that might have brought us a fish that ate all that mercury emitted by "Clean Coal" 'cause the Mrs. and I just LOVE a good tuna sandwich.

          Thank God, the religious right is here to make sure Pat Robertson prays enough to get Hugo Chavez assassinated so we can "socialize" those Venezuelan oil fields and end our dependence on middle east oil.

          Ino

          {"commentId":6785690,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"InoFulwell"}
          • 1 vote
          Reply#4 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:01 PM EDT
          {"commentId":6788376,"authorDomain":"crytopean"}
          The Geneva convention states that water-boarding is torture. We tried Japanese soldiers as "war criminals" for doing the very same thing in WW II.

          Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is:

          " any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a male or female person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions."

          So this "incidental" means in certain countries if you steal or lust after a woman, it is "internationally" lawful for the purveyors of such law to chop off your hand or gouge out your eye - but waterboarding is torture?

          There are two standards for interrogation in the Geneva Convention. One standard applies to POWs or prisoners of war. These prisoners have a preferred status in that they may not be coerced to provide information other than their name, rank and serial number. The other standard applies to those who do not qualify as POWs. These are also referred to as unlawful enemy combatants.

          The Supreme Court in 1942 referred to this classification of lawful and unlawful combatants.

          The unlawful enemy combatants may be coereced to provide information so long as the coercion does not amount to torture.

          Torture is defined as severe pain or anything that would result in lasting physical or mental injury. Water boarding is terrifying but does not impart excruciating or severe pain which is the definition of torture, nor does it go beyond the other limits which is to result in lasting physical or mental damage.

          Therefore;

          1. It is quite reasonable to find that water boarding is not "torture".

          2. Previous cases finding Japanese water boarding Allied POWs to be criminal are not precedents, because as POWs they are lawful combatants and may not be coerced for information once they have provided their name, rank and serial number. Any coercion by the Japanese of Allied POWs would be a war crime,, even a slap on the face. There are also cases in which civilian prisoners were water boarded by the police to obtain confessions. This was found to be criminal. It was not because the water boarding was found to be torture, but because persons accused of crimes are protected by the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution form being compelled to incriminate themselves.

          That being the case, there are no prevous holding in case law, and the opinions of the government lawyers appear to me to be eminently reasonable

          {"commentId":6788376,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"crytopean"}
          • 1 vote
          #4.1 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:43 PM EDT
          Reply
          {"commentId":6796183,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

          Good article.

          You write, "And what of Congress's convening a 'truth commission' to assess culpability among Executive Branch officials for the decision?"

          A Congressional inquiry is better than a Justice Department inquiry, and NO inquiry is better than a Congressional inquiry.

          {"commentId":6796183,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
          • 1 vote
          Reply#5 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:07 PM EDT
          {"commentId":6796747,"authorDomain":"InoFulwell"}

          My. my. That was so eloquently "Dodgy" it reminded me of someome as artistically perverse as Sean "Insanity" or of someone as off-target and deceptive as Dick Cheney and the Bush legal staff!

          You should cross out most of your feeble attempt at "truthiness" and tell me why the aspiration of water into your lungs on scores of occasions is ANYTHING BUT TORTURE. Medical evidence suggests that hard coughing to clear the lungs of fluid or flegm often PERMANENTLY collapses the alveoli. Why do people take the time to lie when they don't possess the intelligence to do so?

          I wonder why Sean Hannity has suddenly developed selective amnesia after volunteering to be water-boarded? You know he even told his viewers and a guest on the FAUX "News" Channel that he would gladly do it "for charity".

          Since then, his 100% correct detractors have offered to give thousands to charity based on how long he could endure the process.

          Do YOU have selective amnesia, too?

          It is duly noted that you evidently FORGOT to mention water-boarding is prohibited in writing in OUR own Military Code of Conduct. Water-boarding is torture and so has said our military and the international courts for years.

          Nice try "Semantic Man".

          Why do Neocons think we fall for this stuff?

          I grow weary of reading the rants of idiot savants who live in a world of rationalizing everything from water-boarding to saying "$#!t Happens" when we dumbly drop smart bombs on schools and hospitals.

          What a worthless case of of puffing.

          {"commentId":6796747,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"InoFulwell"}
            Reply#6 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:28 PM EDT
            {"commentId":6797200,"authorDomain":"pmags"}

            You make a good point Col. Jacobs. Torture, like war, is politics beyond civil debate. But then there is consience, which is beyond politics because it is an individual choice. I do not envy this POTUS on the night he deliberated releasing the memorandums, but I am satisfied, given his opinions and pronouncements while campaigning for the office he now inhabits, that his consience played a most significant role. Debate, hopefully, should be expressed in non-violent political action (and internment without due process is violent) based on facts, as these memorandums are, and not out of the barrels of guns nor at the hands of cold hearted men.

            {"commentId":6797200,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"pmags"}
              Reply#7 - Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:45 PM EDT
              {"commentId":6865206,"authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}

              Actually, the fulcrum on which the intense public debate will swing is the little matters of whether there really is a "global war on terror" and whether said terrorists are still capable of striking the U.S.A. proper and killing a mass number of people.

              A sizable portion of the American population have completely forgotten about 9/11 and have re-arranged their memories to suit their present inclination to feel that it was all just a bad dream. In fact, it was all a bad dream somehow conjured up by Bush, Cheney, and Co. so that they could do all sorts of nasty things against International law and even the U.S. Constitution! In short, it wasn't even a real dream!

              The flaw in this exceptionally stupid thinking is that the really bad attacks have only been on intermission for 7.5 years because Bush & Co. were keeping the terrorist crowd occupied being on the defensive. Now that has relaxed and the idiots are in charge, all the pent-up horrors will come out. How many innocent Americans enjoying this sun-shiny Spring Day will perish before the Obama-Pelosi-Reid clown show stumbles to the tragic conclusion that wishful-thinking ineptitude must meet in a brutal world so intolerant of fools?

              {"commentId":6865206,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}
                Reply#8 - Sun May 3, 2009 6:20 PM EDT
                {"commentId":7596294,"authorDomain":"meerkat-0001"}

                Col. Jacobs, an American Officer, my most humble gratitude and respect. One of a free peoples best.

                {"commentId":7596294,"threadId":"566191","contentId":"2749210","authorDomain":"meerkat-0001"}
                  Reply#9 - Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:32 AM EDT
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