{"contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

Reality Bites

The major theme of Barack Obama's campaign was change, a sharp diversion from the policies of the Bush administration. The electorate, Mr. Obama and his advisers were all confident that many changes, some of them sweeping, would be effected once the new president took office.

One of Obama's recurring pledges was that he would close the prison facility at Guantanamo, eliminate Bush's system of military tribunals, and determine the guilt of the detainees through the guarantees of American jurisprudence. But the harshness of reality almost always trumps the rhetoric of idealism, and the president's Guantanamo experience has been no exception.

As if it were a warm-up for Mr. Obama's headline act, for some time members of Congress have been performing an amusing and instructive scene of political theater in which members of both parties have asserted that no detainee would ever set foot on their soil. By all means, Mr. President, do close Guantanamo, but don't even think of sending the terrorists to my state.

This week, the president reiterated his desire to close the facility, but he admitted that it was not going to happen any time soon. Indeed, he floated the idea of introducing legislation to codify the Bush policy of prolonged detention. Because "prolonged" has no objective measure, some chagrined observers ascertained that the practical implementation of such a policy may result in indefinite detention, although to be accurate "indefinite" means exactly what it says---of no specified duration---and does not mean forever. Nevertheless, some of Obama's supporters are apoplectic about Obama's subsuming academic ideals under the realities of American politics, but it is only the latest in a series of executive decisions that demonstrate that campaigning isn't governance.

And to underscore the political infeasibility of unilaterally changing policy in a system of shared powers, the House of Representatives---charged by the Constitution with the authority to write checks to pay the nation's bills---soundly defeated the legislation to pay for Gitmo's closing in a startling display of bipartisan agreement. Nothing forges solidarity like political expediency.

In his televised address from the National Archives, Mr. Obama said that the prolonged detention of these detainees was the most important question we will face. But for Americans who are struggling with the realities of our weak economy, how we treat accused terrorists is not very important at all, and for many people the fact that about 15% of released detainees return to combat against us means that legal niceties can wait until we have time for them, if ever. The president is right that the fairness of a nation's legal system defines its character, but try to use that abstraction on someone whose time is fully occupied with more mundane matters like feeding his family.

{"contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
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{"commentId":7234951,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Barack Obama is a preening moral mountebank as Charles Krauthammer accurately limns today. I understand why the president issues these airy, fairy statements as they're aimed at placating the "outraged" in his base notwithstanding the fact that his administration's actions belie them. That said, it does not make them any less disgusting.

{"commentId":7234951,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 7 votes
Reply#1 - Fri May 22, 2009 2:43 PM EDT
{"commentId":7237923,"authorDomain":"duckcheney"}
duckcheneyExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

Bill Harrison is absolutely correct as it takes a charlatan to know one, is there anyone more pretentious on newsvine than this guy?

{"commentId":7237923,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"duckcheney"}
  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Fri May 22, 2009 5:43 PM EDT
{"commentId":7239953,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

Reported as inflammatory.

How about some reasonable, substantive comments, guys?

I am writing a major creative response to the president's speech and will publish it as a link here by tomorrow.

{"commentId":7239953,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Fri May 22, 2009 7:54 PM EDT
{"commentId":7250970,"authorDomain":"duckcheney"}

So shoot the messenger, but bill harrison is still speaking from experience when he calls Obama a mountebank. Collapsing my comment all day long will not change that.

{"commentId":7250970,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"duckcheney"}
  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Sat May 23, 2009 5:33 PM EDT
{"commentId":7254447,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Neither shall it help you construct much of a cogent comment. Now you think about that this weekend when men and women have died so you have the privilege of typing script on a webpage.

{"commentId":7254447,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Sun May 24, 2009 1:02 AM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":7240070,"authorDomain":"jaywow67"}

Very poor taste.

preening moral mountebank

How many dictionaries and thesaurus did you use to come up with that one Bill.

{"commentId":7240070,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"jaywow67"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Fri May 22, 2009 8:02 PM EDT
{"commentId":7240317,"authorDomain":"dacincykid"}

This whole seed is innacurate and noit worth commenting on

{"commentId":7240317,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"dacincykid"}
  • 1 vote
#2.1 - Fri May 22, 2009 8:20 PM EDT
{"commentId":7242786,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

Jay

Why none. I had an education. Et tu?

{"commentId":7242786,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 4 votes
#2.2 - Fri May 22, 2009 11:44 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":7242651,"authorDomain":"myriver"}
The president is right that the fairness of a nation's legal system defines its character, but try to use that abstraction on someone whose time is fully occupied with more mundane matters like feeding his family.

Prisoners of war have made and will make history throughout the ends of time. How they are treated dictates how that country is reflected on. I can't imagine how the men at Guantanamo must have felt to have come to America for the purpose of immigrating, perhaps to reach out to us, and in turn be persecuted by overly-aggressive, hostile Americans. That's not the message we wanted to send to the world. That's not who I am, and I deeply resent being represented in such a way.

The average person, yes, has more to care about than some strangers, and what the government does with them. The average person might be fully supportive of what has taken place at Guantanamo, and there are millions, if not tens of millions, that don't even know why Guantanamo has made the news. That does nothing to negate the fact that something will have to be done to resolve Guantanamo. Yes, they are likely to reoffend. All considered, I'm not so sure I wouldn't myself, if I were in their place. (And how many Americans reoffend, also? Let an American out to rape and kill again, but don't let another nationality ever see the light of day even without a trial or conviction? How does that keep me safer?)

{"commentId":7242651,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"myriver"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Fri May 22, 2009 11:32 PM EDT
{"commentId":7250355,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}
I can't imagine how the men at Guantanamo must have felt to have come to America for the purpose of immigrating, perhaps to reach out to us, and in turn be persecuted by overly-aggressive, hostile Americans.

The detainees at Guantanamo are not immigrants. They were captured in the Afghani theatre during the War on Terrorism, so they are either Al-Qaeda, Taliban, or their sympathizers.

{"commentId":7250355,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 2 votes
#3.1 - Sat May 23, 2009 4:23 PM EDT
{"commentId":7250425,"authorDomain":"myriver"}

I did not realize they were brought in from overseas. I was under the impression they were rounded up on American soil. Thank you for that, Neron.

How does one determine an Al-Qaeda member? Are they marked in some way, or are they judged by their attitudes? Did they just 'look' like criminals? I asked because, well, it's been going on 8 years now, and I haven't heard of a single conviction coming out of Guantanamo. 8 years in prison without a trial, just because someone didn't like the way I looked or the cousins I had dinner with?!?!? I'm sure I'd be angry, too, and yes, I'd probably reoffend.

{"commentId":7250425,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"myriver"}
  • 1 vote
#3.2 - Sat May 23, 2009 4:32 PM EDT
{"commentId":7250701,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}
I haven't heard of a single conviction coming out of Guantanamo. 8 years in prison without a trial

This really is the core issue. There is a fundamental issue of justice, irrespective of the final disposition of the detainees. The president is right from this perspective in wanting to settle their status BEFORE the next Administration comes to office.

A question I have not seen raised pertains to the status of combatants captured now and in the future. Assuming that some are captured and not killed, where are they going? Can someone answer?

{"commentId":7250701,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 2 votes
#3.3 - Sat May 23, 2009 5:03 PM EDT
{"commentId":7250891,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

River-239955:

This may provide some background for you:

"How Did Guantanamo Become a Prison?",

http://hnn.us/articles/11000.html

{"commentId":7250891,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 2 votes
#3.4 - Sat May 23, 2009 5:24 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":7248419,"authorDomain":"lambchop"}

We should treat our guests at Guantanamo as we treat ourselves. Personally I think they should be forced to wear high heals, womens "undergarments", carry enormous purses filled with water bottles, food, make-up, a wallet, and at least one book, endure Botox and other beauty treatments not the least of which being laser-hair removal on their privates and back waxing (ok, that one is just to be spiteful). They should have to juggle a full time job, manage a house, please a husband and raise at least one child ... homework duties and soccer car-pools included. And all without so much as a thank you! In short, they should be treated as women! Geeze, bet they'd BEG for water-boarding!

{"commentId":7248419,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"lambchop"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#4 - Sat May 23, 2009 1:12 PM EDT
{"commentId":7249641,"authorDomain":"myriver"}

AMEN to that, Lamb Chop!

{"commentId":7249641,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"myriver"}
  • 4 votes
#4.1 - Sat May 23, 2009 3:04 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":7249528,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

Col. Jack Jacobs:

Nothing forges solidarity like political expediency.

I admit this is probably the most unique response one could devise:

"Welcome to the Hotel California",

http://amberneve.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/23/2856208-welcome-to-the-hotel-california-

{"commentId":7249528,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#5 - Sat May 23, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
{"commentId":7280695,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

Well, the detainees are certainly not leaving Guantanamo right away, at least until the House appropriates money to close the facility and the White House gets some legislators to agree that the detainees can stay in facilities in their states. Those combatants who have been captured more recently are held in overseas facilities, mostly in Iraq and Afghanistan, and many low-level captives in Iraq are in the custody of the Iraqis.

{"commentId":7280695,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
  • 2 votes
#5.1 - Tue May 26, 2009 10:47 AM EDT
{"commentId":7280879,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}
Those combatants who have been captured more recently are held in overseas facilities, mostly in Iraq and Afghanistan, and many low-level captives in Iraq are in the custody of the Iraqis.

Why cannot the Guantanamo detainees be moved to where the more recent captures are being held? Are the G. detainees too high value in relation to the others?

{"commentId":7280879,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 2 votes
#5.2 - Tue May 26, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":7256387,"authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}

Perhaps the silliest reasoning on the issue of "torture" and of treating suspected terrorists exceptionally well until they can get some type of trial with full disclosure and legal examination of all sources of information against them (thereby destroying fragile intelligence operations) is this: We have to treat suspected enemy combatants like they are made out of sugar because we want and expect US troops to be treated similarly when they are captured by terrorists!

The usual fate of Americans captured by al Qaida or Taliban is to be rather promptly beaten to death or shot, then mutilated. Does anyone know of any American P.O.W.'s who have survived capture by these enemies?

{"commentId":7256387,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}
    Reply#6 - Sun May 24, 2009 10:22 AM EDT
    {"commentId":7265985,"authorDomain":"davidemeadows"}

    Col

    "In his televised address from the National Archives, Mr. Obama said that the prolonged detention of these detainees was the most important question we will face. But for Americans who are struggling with the realities of our weak economy, how we treat accused terrorists is not very important at all, and for many people the fact that about 15% of released detainees return to combat against us means that legal niceties can wait until we have time for them, if ever. The president is right that the fairness of a nation's legal system defines its character, but try to use that abstraction on someone whose time is fully occupied with more mundane matters like feeding his family. "

    I have little faith in O defending the rights on Americans when vets have lost their rights and O doess nothing about it.

    Check out what I have found:

    http://davidemeadows.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/24/2858894-dead-soldiers-honored-live-vets-dishonored

    {"commentId":7265985,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"davidemeadows"}
    • 1 vote
    Reply#7 - Mon May 25, 2009 8:57 AM EDT
    {"commentId":7280969,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

    Thanks for the link.

    The problem with most politicians is that they are politicians. Obama (or Bush or any other executive) will only do those things recommended to him by his advisors. At the inaugural, Obama attended the Commander-in-Chief's Ball but did not attend the Veterans' Ball. Bad staff decision. Obama was not planning to attend a 25 March wreath-laying at Arlington Cemetery to honor deceased Medal Medal of Honor recipients---until a senator's staff called the presaident's staff to insist that it was an important event. The president attended. Unless it is deemed a very important issue, most presidential decisions are made by staff, and they are guaranteed to irritate some---if not most---of us. That's why the most important decisions a boss ever makes is the selection of those with whom he surrounds himself.

    {"commentId":7280969,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
    • 2 votes
    #7.1 - Tue May 26, 2009 11:01 AM EDT
    {"commentId":7281073,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

    Heh. One thing's for sure Col. Jacobs and that's that the selection of Luis Caldera as WH military liaison was a huge mistake now remedied.

    {"commentId":7281073,"threadId":"585240","contentId":"2850959","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
    • 3 votes
    #7.2 - Tue May 26, 2009 11:05 AM EDT
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