{"contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

Foaming At The Mouth

If one were looking for examples that our elected officials' intellectual development is arrested, one would find one no better than Representative Addison Graves ("Joe") Wilson, Sr., (R-SC). This past Wednesday, Barack Obama delivered to the Congress a widely televised speech about his administration's health care proposal, and, evidently in response to the president's statement that health care would not be provided to illegal immigrants, Mr. Wilson shouted "You lie!"

In evaluating Wilson's behavior, it is useful to separate it from the issue that prompted it.

At the moment, it is difficult to say with certainty if Obama's proposal will provide health care to illegal aliens, but one can safely assume that, given the inefficiency of most government activity, it is likely that some---if not most---illegals will receive free care. Most of them can get it now anyway, since all they have to do is walk into any hospital emergency room with an ailment or injury, and they receive care (not promptly, of course) but pay nothing.

Also try to ignore the fact that politicians lie. Many of them do, and those who don't often dissemble and deal in innuendo, false accusation and hyperbole. Is it a lie to make a campaign promise you have no intention of keeping---or know you can't keep? Most people will agree that it is, and so by this measure nearly all politicians are liars, although it does not seem to matter, since we return them to office more than 90% of the time.

An evaluation of Mr. Wilson's outburst should not include how one feels about him personally. How his constituents feel about him is the only thing that matters to either them or him, and at least until this incident, his constituents loved him. We live in a representative democracy, and although officials are often torn between what they want to do and what their electorate wants them to do, they are usually disinclined to irritate the people who send them to Washington.

And it doesn't matter if one likes or even respects Barack Obama (or indeed any president)---and instead would prefer to don a cotton suit soaked in premium gasoline and walk over hot coals to avoid having to encounter him. These passions should not inform how we treat him or any official in public, particularly in the forum of a joint session of Congress, when the visible stucture of our political regime assembles. A small number of presidents were very good at their jobs, most of them were barely adequate, and some were genuinely awful. The same thing is true of members of the House and Senate, many of whom have been felons, liars, creeps, degenerates and genuine enemies of the people. But we are so lucky to live in a free society, as imperfect as it is, that we ought to revere the institution and not confuse the regime with the people who occupy it.

The troops who have risked their lives since the formation of this nation have done so not for any incumbent but for the political structure that guarantees our freedom. Read the oath for federal office: it does not swear allegiance to any person but to the Constitution, and it is the Constitution and the 300 million people it protects that are offended when the quality of political discourse is lowered to the level of that on a grade school playground. Americans who want good government will not get it until they first demand good behavior from those who administer it.

{"contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.
{"commentId":9415266,"authorDomain":"happilyretired"}

Whether it is throwing a pair of shoes or shouting "you lie", there is a rather large group that seems to enjoy this type of behavior. I was brought up to believe that respect of the other person's rights was paramount and that sentiment should and would be reciprocated. I can only describe the current thinking as "I know my rights and I will exercise my rights and I don't care what anyone else thinks".

{"commentId":9415266,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"happilyretired"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:24 PM EDT
{"commentId":9416514,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

There has always been bad behavior in politics, some of it quite a bit more revolting than Wilson's, but those who forget why we HAVE politics---on both ends of the political spectrum--- ruin it for everyone else. Public discourse, when it wasn't accompanied by revolution and gunfire, was not always like this, and for some reason as the percentage of Americans with (a purported) education has increased, political discussion has become less articulate. For example, because he served a far larger historical purpose, we forget that Abraham Lincoln was a witty and wry raconteur with a razor wit, all things that made him a formidable political opponent and a man capable of forging strong alliances. Today, most people will find humor in anything scatological, and what passes for diplomacy is Joe Biden announcing that we will fight anybody to insure the Republic of Georgia stays free of Russian influence.

{"commentId":9416514,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:16 PM EDT
{"commentId":9418735,"authorDomain":"wandasimmons"}

I know that this is beating a dead horse but it seems glaringly evident that conservatives are held to a higher standard than liberals. I know that we conservatives tend to set a higher standard for ourselves, which is probably one of the reasons that we expect better behavior from others. Unfortunately, it appears that those who have lower expectations for themselves still intend to hold us to a higher standard than they hold themselves.

{"commentId":9418735,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"wandasimmons"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:19 PM EDT
{"commentId":9420254,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

The casing on my MacBook Pro has become defective, interfering with the trackpad function and thus my ability to produce written content. I suspect this defect in manufacturing is the reason Apple introduced a new line of SOLID-cased MacBook Pros. Too late for me, though.

Given that we live in historic times, I cannot resist making a couple of brief comments. I read the text of President Obama's address to a joint session of Congress on the subject of health care reform. With the exception of vilifying the insurance industry, I think he did an outstanding job in laying the FOUNDATION of comprehensive reform. While he rejected for now my proposal for altogether restructuring the health care industry, he was remarkably sympathetic to many features of my proposal "Guiding the Universal Healthcare Debate", which is posted exclusively here on Newsvine.

Since the president's address, health care for non-citizens has been raised as one major additional point of interest. Without here explaining my rationale, I want it known that my plan would INCLUDE provision for them.

{"commentId":9420254,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:02 PM EDT
{"commentId":9421479,"authorDomain":"farmer"}

Trying to find a way to pick on Representative Wilson for his "you lie" is giving me the fits since I kind of understood the guy that threw the shoe at bush. And I have to admit I began early to put bush in lower case and now can't break the habit. That said, it is important that our elected officials conduct themselves with proper decorum. As the Colonel points out, they evidently are what their constituents want. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

{"commentId":9421479,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"farmer"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#5 - Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:22 PM EDT
{"commentId":9426930,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

But this outlook is cynical and potentially, capitulation. In especially tough times, we need hope.

One can look at this episode from another angle. Notice Nancy Pelosi's honest and spontaneous shock. Her reaction proves that the Honorable Congressman's outburst was the exception rather than the rule, and thus that the public tone in Washington is predominately civil.

{"commentId":9426930,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 3 votes
#5.1 - Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:53 AM EDT
{"commentId":9428243,"authorDomain":"farmer"}

Neron Kesar, I applaud a civil tone in Washington. The problem is cynical and full of potential capitulations. Politicians, in general, even the best, seem to have a knack for bending to the needs of the highest dollar contributors rather than the votes. This is leading for the electorate to become more and more frustrated and once in a while stepping beyond the traces to make themselves heard.

Before you take my head off, Wilson is one of the politicians I speak of. He is not a believable protester. Oh, and thanks for being here through thick and thin.

{"commentId":9428243,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"farmer"}
  • 4 votes
#5.2 - Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:59 AM EDT
{"commentId":9450631,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

Thank you for the affirmation.

I recall you ran for public office and that it was a celebrated event here on Newsvine.

{"commentId":9450631,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 4 votes
#5.3 - Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:59 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":9464015,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

The exchange between Neron and oldfogey raises again the important issue of campaign financing. Although most politics are local, most financing is not. A new candidate who wants to represent his district with enthusiasm and honor must first collect a very large sum of money from places where the money is: New York, Los Angeles, D.C., Chicago and so on. Even to those of us who are old and thus no longer naive, this is distressing. Although a large war chest does not guarantee victory, candidates are acutely aware of Damon Runyon's advice that the race may not always be to the swift nor the battle to the strong---but that's how to bet.

{"commentId":9464015,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#6 - Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:39 AM EDT
{"commentId":9482528,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

Ecclesiastes 9:11.

When I was a youth, compact discs were introduced to the market. I recall picking up a cd, glancing at its shiny underside, and saying to myself, "You know, they ought to put movies on these things". This was many years before dvd's. Others thought the same thought and pursued it to its consummation.

People expect the same possibility thinking from their politicians -- novel ideas and their results.

One of the foremost impediments facing Coalition forces in the Middle East is IED's. Is it reasonable to conclude all explosives bear a chemical signature that is responsive to a sound frequency? Can an airborne device be developed that would trigger known explosives and thus clear routes long in advance of military traffic?

{"commentId":9482528,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 1 vote
#6.1 - Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:13 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":9465185,"authorDomain":"farmer"}

Herein lies the stink from the rotten egg.

A new candidate who wants to represent his district with enthusiasm and honor must first collect a very large sum of money from places where the money is: New York, Los Angeles, D.C., Chicago and so on.

There is absolutely no honor when the solicitation of money from afar and those not within a district for Representatives go hand in hand. Col. Jack Jacobs suggests this is just a practical matter. It should also be considered an ethical and moral one. I would even say it might rise to the level of being a legal matter. Is the peoples' right to equal protection under the law fulfilled when votes and influence of representatives is predicated on the amount of money one can raise?

{"commentId":9465185,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"farmer"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#7 - Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:58 AM EDT
{"commentId":9465253,"authorDomain":"tom-carter"}

Wilson's behavior was low-class and reprehensible. He is what he is, and no number of apologies is going to change that. I've read reports that his potential opponent next year has received a fresh spurt of campaign contributions because of what Wilson did, and I've also read that Wilson himself has received increased campaign contributions. I hope his constituents are smart enough to know a clod when they see one and vote him out next election.

I agree that the level of political discourse has been reduced to a distressing level. I don't know whether the cause is politicians meeting their constituents' expectations or politicians themselves being less intelligent and more extremist. Whatever the cause, I for one would like to see it stop.

{"commentId":9465253,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"tom-carter"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#8 - Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:04 AM EDT
{"commentId":9466007,"authorDomain":"bernie-valentine"}

Certainly true that Rep. Wilson, perhaps in his passionate attempt to make his point, inevitably caused embarassment to, not only his "cause", but to the established decorum of our "visible" political system. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a society which, not only $$$$, but "Extreme behavior" is becoming the increasingly all-to-common method of making "your point" and having it heard!

And, yes.....we need to take $$$$ out of the campaign equation. Along with its removal will go most of the corruption. But expecting politicians to amend the system, would be like asking one to slit one's own wrists.

{"commentId":9466007,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"bernie-valentine"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#9 - Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:51 AM EDT
{"commentId":9467674,"authorDomain":"lambchop"}

Bottom line, Rep Wilson was clearly badly raised. His mother should be ashamed of him, and the job she did with him.

{"commentId":9467674,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"lambchop"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#10 - Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
{"commentId":9480531,"authorDomain":"wandasimmons"}

Isn't there something about those without sin, throw the first stone? It appears that most of the people who are writing in, have those perfect past performances. Soooo that brings us to the disrespect of the Speaker of the House who feels free to call others liars and not be held accountable for it.

{"commentId":9480531,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"wandasimmons"}
    Reply#11 - Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:42 PM EDT
    {"commentId":9489448,"authorDomain":"lambchop"}

    With or without sin on the part of the stone thrower, bad behavior is STILL bad behavior.

    {"commentId":9489448,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"lambchop"}
      Reply#12 - Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:13 AM EDT
      {"commentId":9491281,"authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}

      I have heard that Bush was booed by some in Congress following or during his State of the Union address in 2005. I am unable to confirm this, perhaps because it was under-reported.

      {"commentId":9491281,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}
        Reply#13 - Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:21 AM EDT
        {"commentId":9518219,"authorDomain":"bernie-valentine"}

        Yes, and I'm afraid that if we actually called out many other such bad behaviors or inappropriate "visible" comments.....we wouldn't have much of a Congress left in their seats.

        Nevertheless, two wrongs ..don't make a right! We wouldn't want our sessions in Congress to look like those in Parliament would you!?

        {"commentId":9518219,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"bernie-valentine"}
          Reply#14 - Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:53 AM EDT
          {"commentId":9520607,"authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}

          Anyhow, I read a report on the war in Afghanistan describing an action in the southern part of that country in which four Americans were killed, as well as numerous Afghan government troops. This was a sweep of a hill top village where fewer than 20 Taliban were expected to be found, but instead more than 200 were present arrayed for an ambush.

          The sweep, unfortunately, took place after the new policy of limiting air strikes in support of troops engaged with the enemy went into effect. No air support at all showed up for an hour and a half, during which time the enemy fired continuously without running out of ammo, keeping the coalition force pinned down and in a bad way.

          My idea of the proper way to treat an American soldier (one of those killed was a Navy corpsman) is for them always to be no more than ten minutes away from close air support. When they are ambushed, the bombs need to start falling immediately and if most of the enemy fire is coming from a populated village that must make no difference. Personally, I prefer napalm for missions like this in rocky terrain or against buildings with thick walls.

          {"commentId":9520607,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}
            Reply#15 - Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:39 AM EDT
            {"commentId":9523424,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

            Young troops and their leaders are taught at the beginning that one never commits the main body of the force until the enemy location and strength is known. In practice that means that there should always be a reserve, and that if the reserve is committed to combat it must be reconstituted. The terrain and enemy pose special difficulties in Afghanistan, but the principles are no different. Forces that can be used either to reinforce success or rescue from failure must be nearby and prepared to act within moments. And among larger units, one need look no further than Patton's army's relief of the untenable situation at The Bulge.

            {"commentId":9523424,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
              #15.1 - Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:21 AM EDT
              Reply
              {"commentId":9535455,"authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}

              "But we are so lucky to live in a free society, as imperfect as it is, that we ought to revere the institution and not confuse the regime with the people who occupy it"

              If you made merchandise with that quote on it, I'd buy it Colonel.

              {"commentId":9535455,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"kpeltonen85"}
                Reply#16 - Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:00 PM EDT
                {"commentId":9539617,"authorDomain":"wandasimmons"}

                Col. Jacobs, where do you think they went wrong in this particular sweep of the Afghanistan hilltop village? Was it the ground troops, bad information, or Washington policy making?

                {"commentId":9539617,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"wandasimmons"}
                  Reply#17 - Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:26 PM EDT
                  {"commentId":9627793,"authorDomain":"maiah"}

                  Col. Jacobs said:

                  "Public discourse, when it wasn't accompanied by revolution and gunfire, was not always like this, and for some reason as the percentage of Americans with (a purported) education has increased, political discussion has become less articulate."

                  My greatest concern about the lack of civil discourse today is in the line highlighted above. Some of the dissenters seem to be using the most inflammatory dialog (as well as bringing guns to rallies), as if to justify an armed revolution. While I vehemently opposed Pres. Bush and his policies, it never occurred to me that I would have to "take back my country" via revolution or at gun point. I voted!

                  {"commentId":9627793,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"maiah"}
                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#18 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:53 PM EDT
                  {"commentId":9630831,"authorDomain":"farmer"}

                  Amen!

                  {"commentId":9630831,"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219","authorDomain":"farmer"}
                    #18.1 - Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:36 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    {"canLink":false,"threadId":"674008","isPrivate":false}
                    Leave a Comment:
                    You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
                    As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
                    {"threadId":"674008","contentId":"3253219"}
                    Start TrackingStart Tracking
                    Stop TrackingStop Tracking
                    Col. Jack Jacobs's Latest Comments
                    Comments & Feedback
                    – Show More