{"contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

Gitmo Comes To NY

The original decision to house terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay was something of a default selection. These people were captured during a campaign against terrorism, and the United States was loath to agree tacitly that these were prisoners of war and thus entitled to any rights afforded conventional warriors. The suspects were seized on foreign soil, and we did not want to relinquish control of these people to governments that had prisons with inadequate security. Furthermore, it was feared that some governments would have summarily released the terror suspects, enabling them to kill more Americans. And Guantanamo is not in the United States and thus not subject to US law, permitting the Bush administration to study at relative leisure the dilemma of what jurisprudence, if any, applied to these people.

Nearly a decade later: a new president, a new attorney general and a different decision on the same problem. For a number of reasons---some excellent and some nauseatingly self-serving---Obama decided to close Gitmo, although the Congress, in a lopsided vote, refused to fund the closure.

Now, the administration has decided on a tactic that it hopes will achieve its objective of getting Guantanamo off its To-Do List: try the terrorists in federal court on American soil, and to that end, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the man who says he planned the 9/11 attacks, is being brought to New York to stand trial.

For starters, KSM's defense team will contest the composition of the grand jury and its indictment, and it will not agree to a trial without a petit jury, since conviction requires the prosecution to convince every single person on an untutored panel, all of whom have so much time on their hands that they can sit for months---or even years. Juries are notoriously quixotic, too, easily impressed by theatrics and occasionally convicting the innocent but also freeing the guilty. And in any case, selecting a diverse jury will take nearly forever, as there will be endless argument about the possible bias of potential Muslim members---and of Christians, Jews, multitheists, anamists, Buddhists, agnostics and atheists as well.

KSM will also argue for summary dismissal or that no evidence should be admissible, since he was arrested illegally; is not subject to the jurisdiction of the court; was coerced; was tortured; was denied counsel; was denied a speedy trial; had a rotten childhood.

The terrorists have been trouble both on and off the battlefield, but the problem of deciding what is to be done to them by a nation founded on the rule of law will haunt us for a long time. Mayor Bloomberg of New York City agrees with the decision to try KSM here, although he may not have considered that the court will be unable to find a single unbiased juror in a city that suffered more killed by enemy action---almost all of them innocent civilians, by the way---than were killed at Pearl Harbor.

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{"commentId":10721220,"authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}

This is a situation where I must just throw up my hands and wail. For the price of this monster trial ultimately we could add two or three ships to the littoral Navy, or buy two or three C-17's, or pay for the 40,000 troop surge in Afghanistan that Obama is poor-mouthing.

{"commentId":10721220,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"cookaerospace"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:51 AM EST
{"commentId":10736236,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

The dollar cost of the trial is impossible to calculate at this point, but it will be enormous. Subsequent trials for other detainees will total additional millions. The most significant cost, however, is not likely to be in dollars but in injury to the legal system, since it is being distorted to accomodate these special circumstances and will be further manipulated by the detainees for their own political ends. The legal system is not blind but is actually a political tool to further the security of---and fairness to---the polity. It is difficult to see how attempting to try detainees in a US court will achieve either.

{"commentId":10736236,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#2 - Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:08 PM EST
{"commentId":10736633,"authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}

Colonel:

These people were captured during a campaign against terrorism, and the United States was loath to agree tacitly that these were prisoners of war and thus entitled to any rights afforded conventional warriors.

That was a stupid thing to do. Undoing something stupid that some stupid person did previously doesn't usually lead to clran and neat solutions. Compounded by:

the Congress, in a lopsided vote, refused to fund the closure.

Another very stupid thing that other very stupid people did.

Your idea seems to be to acknowledge how very stupid those stupid things were, but that we should continue the stupid things because there's no good way to un-stupid them.

{"commentId":10736633,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:26 PM EST
{"commentId":10752756,"authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}

I advocate nothing of the kind. My advice is that one should expect very little in the way of justice in a procedure that is not designed to administer it.

{"commentId":10752756,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"jackjacobs"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#4 - Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:53 PM EST
{"commentId":10752861,"authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}

Colonel Jack:

Well, what should we do instead of:

a) What we been doin', and

b) What we're gonna do?

{"commentId":10752861,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"jfxgillis"}
  • 1 vote
#4.1 - Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:57 PM EST
{"commentId":10759832,"authorDomain":"matthew-babiarz"}

I saw an interesting take on this situation. Back during WWII a group of 8 German infiltrators came to our shores in an attempt to spy, sabotage, and generally cause mayhem. FDR convened a military tribunal, tried and convicted the first two that were caught and sentenced them to death. In return for having their death sentence commuted the first two gave up the other 6. Those 6 were tried found guilty and executed even though there was a strong possibility that the Supreme court was going to take up and make a decision on the case.

I suggest that President Obama act with a level of decisive action we have yet to see from him and do just that. Try, convict and execute these terrorists and close this chapter in a long a sordid story. Even the most liberal of pundits cannot argue with the fact that these are unrepentant terrorists that will attack Americans again given the chance. Sure the left will bleat about a mis-carriage of justice, and the right will beat their chests at finally having gotten President Obama to act like the previous administration, but in the end it is what needs to be done. They are not citizens of this country, and as long as they never set foot on American soil they should not enjoy any of the protections that our citizens and residents do.

{"commentId":10759832,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"matthew-babiarz"}
  • 1 vote
#4.2 - Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:58 PM EST
Reply
{"commentId":10756056,"authorDomain":"tom-carter"}

This is one of the worst decisions the Administration has made so far. I understand their eagerness to discredit their predecessors and to deny that there even is such a thing as a war on terror. It's irrational, but I understand it. In addition to the points you made, there are many other problems and potential problems. To name just a couple:

By what logic do we try some terrorist combatants as common criminals in federal court and others by military tribunals?

If KSM is to be given the presumption of innocence and full constitutional rights in federal court, how do we justify seeking out and killing other terrorists, which we're doing every day, without reading them their rights and giving them full due process?

What happens if KSM doesn't get the death penalty, or worse, receives a less-than-life sentence or is even acquited?

The defense lawyers only have to sway one juror to get a hung jury. The jury decision probably won't come until 2014 or 2015. After all that time, then to get a hung jury -- does anyone think the Justice Department will decide to do it all over again?

Obama is betting his presidency on this one, and he may well lose big.

{"commentId":10756056,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"tom-carter"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#5 - Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:53 PM EST
{"commentId":10765148,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}

It is important for a commander to know the mind of the enemy before engaging them. I am not convinced Obama understand the enemy.

I saw a snippet from an interview of Obama conducted today by Fox News. (I am happy the president is on speaking terms again with Fox in so far as I watch as much or more Fox News as I do CNN.) The subject was troop increases in Afghanistan. Obama said he would render a decision within a few more weeks! (as though he has not had sufficient time already).

In simple terms, the president illustrated the debate as a non-productive slog on the one hand, and nation building on the other. One side says get out of Afghanistan, while the other side argues for staying in order to stabilize the country and its fledgling democratic institutions.

These arguments are nothing new, but what he did (or did not) say next raised my eye. He seemed to suggest the proper position was somewhere in between.

If this is true, Obama is dead wrong. His thinking is not my thinking. One cannot mediate peace with radical fundamentalists. They are possessed by a religious zeal and despise weakness. Tolerance for viewpoints that differ from their own is considered by them a weakness.

Obama cannot win the War on Terrorism in Afghanistan so long as religious fundamentalism appeals to the psyche of the indigenous population. Yet, I propose that fundamentalism there is tied to the terrain.

The people understand and respect raw, brutal power. This is where there is a difference between me and Obama. He acts like a mediator standing between two parties, appealing for them to make peace. Contrarily, I stand apart from and not between the parties and compel them to make peace.

{"commentId":10765148,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 2 votes
#5.1 - Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:58 PM EST
Reply
{"commentId":10764293,"authorDomain":"amberneve"}
he may not have considered that the court will be unable to find a single unbiased juror

This was the first thought that occurred to me and you can bet the defendant's lawyers will raise it promptly.

{"commentId":10764293,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"amberneve"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#6 - Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:16 PM EST
{"commentId":10765131,"authorDomain":"farmer"}

Much ado about nothing. We arrive at this predicament as the given result of not obeying our Constitution. The slippery slope began when we conducted our first military action without a declaration of war by Congress. We are now falling off the edge. We no longer want to follow the law but instead to do the feel good thing.

{"commentId":10765131,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"farmer"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#7 - Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:57 PM EST
{"commentId":10766346,"authorDomain":"matthew-babiarz"}

So what is the solution? Ill preempt your expected response of," Dont put ourselves in this situation," by saying what's done is done.

{"commentId":10766346,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"matthew-babiarz"}
    #7.1 - Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:56 PM EST
    {"commentId":10770160,"authorDomain":"farmer"}

    We do what Americans have done in the past. We follow the lead of our President. We get behind our legislators and either support or push. We listen to our judiciary as it prepares for and conducts anexercise in national morality. The incessant carping between wingnuts of both the right and left is helping to fulfill the objectives of those very terrorists who would attack our country. The greatest threat to our country is not some far away terrorist cabal but is instead the lack of willingness of Americans to join in common cause.

    {"commentId":10770160,"threadId":"726311","contentId":"3505000","authorDomain":"farmer"}
    • 1 vote
    #7.2 - Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:58 AM EST
    {"commentId":10903905,"authorDomain":"nala-25-just-say-the-truth"}

    How about "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS".........this is what its all about......they should be tried in a military court period.....This is the first time this situation has occured in our civil courts on American soil .....and the justifications to do this are simply "WEAK"....the terrorist attacked both civilian and military targets...further more they were captured over seas with no attachment to a national government..

    Why all the sudden this has to be done in NY instead of military court which has never has been done before??Why do we need to reinvent the wheel for political propaganda??My fear of the whole thing it will end in a hung jury.....and how do you think New Yorkers will respond if this happens and how our leaders will look to the world abroad.How about the morale of our soldiers smack dab in the middle of an on going fight over seas....Its a scary matter and our courts have proven they can fail now and have done so in the past......this whole thing is just completely wrong and shows the "U.S." weakness of "Political Correctness" hanging us out to dry and for the world to see the BIG CIRCUS SHOW.

    I can see it now.....the guy representing himself so he can be provided the intel that we used to get him and everything we know about him and others......real good thinking on our governments end of the deal....what a joke.

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      #7.3 - Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:50 AM EST
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